TV Shows Kiev Conversations. February 20, 1989
Original Source: Moscow Television Service, 20 February 1989.
EXCERPTS: A convoy of motor vehicles arrived in Kiev from Borispol airport (video shows city scenes, big crowds, Lenin monument, Gorbachev and Shcherbitskii, spouses behind them, laying flowers). Mikhail Sergeevich Gorbachev laid flowers at the Vladimir Il’ich Lenin monument in Kiev city center.
Gorbachev: Do come nearer, one cannot hear.
Woman complains to Gorbachev that at her work no one, apart from the director, appears to be in charge.
Gorbachev: Well, let me join in right at this juncture; you have had your say, now I will have mine. They say: Put things in order!
WOMAN: We say it ourselves!
Gorbachev: That’s just it, that’s just it! But now if we do things in such a way that someone has to come and put the country in order, that someone has to come to the Ukraine, to Kiev, to the enterprises and the scientific institutes, to introduce order, then I’ll tell you directly, we’re going to remain exactly where we are. What, therefore, is today’s leadership doing? Why are we going for this? The economy via reform, these are the new things: contracting, financial autonomy, the rights of the labor collective, elections of directors-if you don’t like the director then have a meeting and decide; it’s your business!
[Indistinct crowd voices]Gorbachev: You know what? Let the party body and the ministry and so on express a point of view; let the collective listen to everything. But the decision is the collective’s. Now they say in the raion that in the town they’ve got more savvy than we have! [laughter] So, let me say this to you: A session is convening and this is what we want to achieve-that the soviets ought to be like that, that they should decide what kind of people are needed; brainy people or brainless ones, you know; people who are ready and willing to meet you halfway or people who have no such desire. So, they should be brought to prominence via the soviets and this, all of this, we ought to get off the ground and, you see, this is already here-it is no longer the same society or country. Would a conversation such as this have taken place before? In 1985 1 would not have been having a conversation such as this with you…
So, how will we go about our cause, advancing it through restructuring? Well, despite the difficulties, hardships, painful problems, and teething problems, despite criticism and even abuse here and there, this cause did indeed get off the ground. Why is it that at times one does encounter criticism, painful problems, and all that? Because the issue of work has now been touched upon: Everyone has to work differently. This goes for us, you, and everyone, otherwise nothing will come out of this. Nothing will come out of this.
You can only divide what you have. Take the family: How does a family live? What and how do family members eat? Well, there you have it, the country is actually no different. There are million pensioners in the country.
MAN: One has to feed them properly, what’s there to think about, one has to work and to feed them properly.
Gorbachev: Absolutely. Well, you will hear what I will have to say about it in March, to be brief. In March we will specially put forward major proposals concerning foodstuffs.
WOMAN: No point in beating about the bush; everyone from the countryside has left for the towns.
Gorbachev: I believe that that’s just about how we will go about things, emphasizing this. In the first place, we are restructuring these relations, so that if someone wants to do lease-contracting, then let him do it; if he wants to form a cooperative, then let him; if he wants to work individually, as a peasant family, then let him; if an individual peasant family wants to, then let’s help them and let them-so all forms, so to speak, including firms, should be used in an enterprising way so that people are engaged in them. That’s the first thing. The second is the social side of things. More has to be given to the countryside problem of fuel an supplies has to.
MAN: The roads are very bad.
Gorbachev: The roads, the roads, especially! And you haven’t seen any really dreadful roads. I don’t know, in the non-chernozem zone of the Ukraine, perhaps, but I have seen some dreadful roads. Roads, roads, roads. What else besides?
What we currently have is that we have both our data and not just our data. There is a direct way of calculating it: if we, today, preserved in full what we produce on the kolkhozes and sovkhozes, if we harvested it, preserved it, and processed it, then we would have a minimum of 20 percent more food.
MAN: What’s going to happen to prices?
WOMAN: Is there going to be some increases in prices, because there’s a lot of talk about prices going up.
MAN: That’s why there’s no soap, but a lot of talk.
Gorbachev: You must remain calm about prices for this reason. If we do come to the conclusion that they have to be changed in some way-not just increased, not just increased, but changed in someway then we will do that only when it has been discussed by the entire people, because if the people are opposed to it, prices mustn’t be touched.
MAN: In general, the people are against it, (?I believe).
Gorbachev: The market must be saturated, that’s the main thing, production must be increased and made cheaper, that’s what has to be done.
What did surprise me-and I want to tell you about it-this is what surprised me: the fact that there are these signals that reach us here. We will yet talk about and examine this together with Vladimir Vasilievich [Shcherbitskii]. I mean things that are in abundant and plentiful supply-where are they? Why is it that they, too, turned out to be in short supply? All of a sudden you get these holdups now with soap, now with washing powder, now with sugar. But, after all, all that is available. Something happened to disorganize this market as far as the goods which were and are in plentiful supply are concerned.
That is why, apart from everything else, and in order to improve the market, we embarked also on this path: we are creating a system of workers’ control. We even want to pass a law on workers’ control…
One must participate. Well, take the Communists-the last time that the report-back and election campaign took place two-thirds were replaced, you know. I have to tell you this. And nonparty people took part; nonparty people took part! A very great change took place.
But you surely know this, too: People are often replaced, but still the restructuring life itself has failed to bring forward these Most active people. In all likelihood time will form them yet.
Things cannot be done immediately. You might say let us propose this or that person, or let us change this or that. But what or who is to take their place?
WOMAN: But people are still afraid.
Gorbachev: Well, let them rid themselves of it, because for as long as you do not …
WOMAN: Mikhail Sergeevich, what kind of thing is this, why is it, all the same, that construction of an atomic power station is underway in the Crimea? After all, it was proven there is great danger.
Gorbachev: I heard this too. I heard that after you had heard this and began to raise this issue-Moscow got to hear about it, the government got to hear about it, yes they did. They did and they called for expert opinion on this project and asked the best specialists from the United States.
WOMAN: And why is no faith placed in ours?
Gorbachev: Wait a moment. Our scientists will be involved, too. I mean here the specialists who built Japan’s entire atomic power industry in 9 or 10 degrees of seismic conditions. Japan relies practically on atomic power alone. So, they have been called upon to give their expert views and this will require a certain amount of time.
The construction is proceeding. However, if expert finds are such that it is not feasible to hand this station over for use, to commission it there, it will then be turned into a station where cadres will be trained; it will be a training center and not an atomic power station.
So we will do what is necessary-this is not a game; it must not be a game where these issues are concerned, so to speak. So all this is in earnest just do not think that we wish to run rings round someone, because we can only get ourselves in a blind alley, so to speak. Okay, comrades, keep the pressure up, only keep it up on the restructuring and not just on the bosses! Press ahead, press ahead, comrades. We from above and you from below. only in this way will restructuring take place. There is not other way. just like the press, you know, from both sides; for if the pressure is one-sided, things will be shifted to only one side.
The most difficult years are these, but we have been through far worse ordeals. When it was a matter of life and death, we coped. It is not a matter now of life and death, but of the fate of the state and the people. Fate can be in various forms. So that’s what the question is.
Source: Jonathan Eisen, ed., Glasnost Reader (New York: New American Library, 1990), pp. 191-194.